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Welcome to “The Ezra Klein Show” from New York Times Opinion. I’m Ezra Klein. Today, I’m thrilled to have my colleague, David French, join me as our guest. David is a talented writer and columnist for Times Opinion, and I’ve learned a lot from his work. His approach to public life is something I deeply admire. He has a background in law and has served in the military. He’s also the author of the insightful book, “Divided We Fall: America’s Secession Threat and How to Restore Our Nation.” I’m excited to hear his thoughts on today’s topic. I hope you enjoy it too.
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First, I want to introduce our guest, Ken White. Ken is a brilliant legal mind and a former federal prosecutor. He has an impressive depth of knowledge in criminal justice and the First Amendment. Today, we will primarily focus on the four cases against Donald Trump. These include the recent indictments in Georgia, the federal case related to the events of January 6th, the Florida case involving classified documents, and the Stormy Daniels hush money case.
Ken’s expertise allows him to provide unique insight into these cases from both the prosecution and defense perspectives. We will delve into the strengths and weaknesses of each case and analyze any errors made by the prosecution or defense. Ken is a co-host of the podcast “Serious Trouble” with Josh Barro and also writes on his Substack, “The Popehat Report.”
If you find Ken’s insights valuable, be sure to check out his podcast and subscribe to his Substack. As always, you can reach out to us with any questions or comments at [email protected].
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Ken, it’s a pleasure to have you on “The Ezra Klein Show.”
ken white
Thank you for having me, David. I’m thrilled to be here.
david french
I’m looking forward to this episode. Our goal is to provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the main issues in each of the criminal cases against Donald Trump. We won’t be diving too deep into the details, as these cases involve thousands of pages of records and are constantly evolving. Instead, we’ll take a broader view.
Our plan is to discuss the four major criminal cases against Trump in reverse order of their filings. We’ll start with the Georgia case, followed by the Jan. 6 case, the Mar-a-Lago documents case, and finally, the Manhattan indictment. We’ll focus on the key points: the prosecution’s strongest argument, the defense’s best case, and which case poses the greatest threat to Trump. So let’s begin with Georgia.
RICO cases, such as the one in Georgia, are particularly ambitious. They bring together multiple conspiracies into one charge, allowing prosecutors to tackle different wrongdoing by various individuals or groups. The Georgia RICO indictment is unique because it combines unrelated conspiracies related to the election, making it challenging to establish a cohesive connection between the defendants.
Another distinction is the indictment’s approach to politics. While the federal Jan. 6 case distinguishes between legitimate and illegitimate actions by Trump, the Georgia RICO indictment lumps everything together, without emphasizing the difference between legal political activities and fraudulent actions.
Ken, you have famously criticized the overuse of RICO. Can you elaborate on the differences between the Georgia RICO statutes and the federal RICO statutes, and why the prosecutor chose to use RICO in this case?
ken white
Certainly, David. The federal RICO statutes, originally designed to combat organized crime, are complex and challenging to prove. Judges often require specific evidence to support RICO charges due to their convoluted nature. This is why we rarely see federal RICO charges, as federal prosecutors have more straightforward criminal tools at their disposal.
In contrast, Georgia’s approach to RICO is less rule-bound and more akin to a general conspiracy charge. The Georgia courts have not imposed strict elements that must be met, resulting in a broad interpretation of the statute. RICO is commonly used in Georgia, almost like conspiracy charges in other jurisdictions. This broad usage seems intentional, making it difficult to mount a defense and prolonging litigation at great expense.
david french
That sheds light on why the Georgia RICO case is more extensive and challenging than its federal counterpart. It’s fascinating to learn about the nuances of these cases. Thank you for joining us today, Ken.
ken white
Thank you for having me, David. It was a pleasure discussing these important legal matters with you.
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