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Earlier this month, The Debrief, a news outlet, published a highly controversial story.
The story, reported by Leslie Kean and Ralph Blumenthal, focuses on David Grusch, an esteemed former combat veteran with experience in government intelligence agencies and service on the Pentagon’s Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force. According to the story, Grusch decided to blow the whistle and testify under oath to Congress about covert U.S. government programs that possess crash materials of “nonhuman origin.” These claims are supported by credible sources from the intelligence community.
[Listen to this episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google, or wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts.]
Reactions to this story have generally fallen into two camps: either accepting it as irrefutable truth or rejecting it outright. However, I wanted to approach this differently. What exactly is being claimed here? Which claims have substantial evidence and which do not? How does this story fit into the larger context of U.F.O. revelations in recent years? There is much to be intrigued about, but also much to be skeptical of.
Leslie Kean, an independent investigative journalist who has contributed to major U.F.O. stories, including this recent one, joins me on the show to provide insights and hopefully answer some of our questions.
You can listen to our entire conversation by following “The Ezra Klein Show” on Apple, Spotify, Google, or any other podcast platform. Check out a list of recommended books from our guests.
(A full transcript of the episode is available here.)
This episode was produced by Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Jeff Geld and Isaac Jones. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Annie-Rose Strasser is the executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio. Special thanks to Garrett Graff and Kristina Samulewski.
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