The following is an exclusive interview transcript with renowned University of Chicago professor, Robert Pape, which originally aired on “Face the Nation” on August 13, 2023.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Enhanced security measures have been implemented in downtown Atlanta in anticipation of potential charges against former President Trump. Recent research indicates a rise in support for political violence following multiple indictments against Trump. Joining us now with further insight is Professor Robert Pape from the University of Chicago.
ROBERT PAPE: Thank you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Your work has long highlighted this disturbing trend in American politics. Could you share the impact you observed after the second federal indictment of former President Trump in June? Has it fueled more anger, or is it deeply ingrained within society?
PAPE: What we’re witnessing is a growing anger and radicalization, extending beyond the fringes and infiltrating the mainstream population. This phenomenon has become more prominent over the past three months. Drawing from my 30 years of expertise in studying political violence, the key takeaway from our “Dangers to Democracy” survey is that support for political violence is now permeating the mainstream. This shift is significant because it extends beyond groups like the Oathkeepers and proud boys, and we’re witnessing the repercussions throughout our society.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Your research indicates a concerning rise in radicalization on both ends of the political spectrum. According to your findings, approximately 30 million individuals believe the use of force is justifiable to prevent Donald Trump from becoming president again, while 18 million think it’s justified to reinstate him. Could you elaborate on this?
PAPE: Indeed. This trend is not limited to one political side. While it is crucial to acknowledge that the events of January 6th, such as the siege on the Capitol, originated primarily from the right, we must focus on the growing radical sentiments on both sides of the spectrum. Millions of Americans are being pulled towards extremist views, and it is crucial to understand that these sentiments may ignite acts of political violence. It is similar to recognizing the potential for wildfires. We cannot predict the exact spark or ignition point, but we can measure and monitor the sentiments for political violence, which are undeniably increasing. It is vital to address this issue due to its capacity to legitimize and fuel acts of violence.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Some argue that these radical sentiments constitute only a small percentage of the population. What is your response, considering the potential significant consequences?
PAPE: The implications are evident in instances like the recent shooting of a 74-year-old man in Utah who had made threats online towards President Biden. It is crucial to acknowledge that the recent rise in online chatter is not our sole concern. What we are witnessing now is the emergence of determined individuals. In Utah, the elderly man had already made threats in March, prompting law enforcement intervention. However, he persisted and even brandished a firearm during their subsequent visit. Similar cases include individuals surveilling and attacking prominent figures like former President Obama and Justice Brett Kavanaugh. These consistent patterns of determined individuals engaging in violence highlight the need for us to be aware of the evolving situation in our country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When examining specific cases like in Utah, doubts arise regarding the alignment of political rhetoric with actual intent. How do you navigate and assess this complex dynamic?
PAPE: Determining intent in these cases requires a comprehensive exploration of individual psychosocial circumstances and other unique factors. However, it is crucial to recognize that individual cases should not overshadow the overarching pattern we are witnessing across the country. Law enforcement typically issues warnings to individuals who make threats, resulting in the resolution of the situation. This was not the case in Utah, where law enforcement escalated their actions due to President Biden’s proximity. It is imperative that we do not wait for an incident to occur before addressing this issue. Additionally, we must not disregard incidents like the chants to hang Vice President Mike Pence during the January 6th events. This is not merely idle chatter; it holds significant weight.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Absolutely, and that’s why we will continue monitoring and reporting on this. Thank you for your insights, Professor Pape. I’m Margaret Brennan.
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